How can the Union President say they can think about reopening the Union Contract before having a vote on it with the members? Doesn't he have close ties to one of the board members? I thought I saw that posted before. Shouldn't he just have said no comment until he speaks to the members? Once again the board and the district are putting their fiscal irresponsibility on the backs of the teachers who are the ones that actually do the educating of the children. Do you really think the district will keep all the teachers if they close two schools. Class sizes are going up to possibly 30 kids for grades 1-4 but the kindergarteners will get their extra 2.5 hrs in only to have it lost when they get no direction due to the larger class sizes in 1-4 as they will be just a number. If they do cut teaching staff do they cut experienced teachers because they cost more or how will that be done? Are we going to have a district of young teachers right out of school with not much experience thanks to SB7? These are the questions people should be asking. Does the administrative cuts include the new asst. superintendent who costs $145,000 to $150,000 per year with benefits? Or did they give him an actual contract which states he gets paid for the year regardless and if so why did the board allow that knowing the district's financial situation? Can we get some real answers to these questions please?

The board needs to take help from the financial advisors in our community offering their services FOR FREE!!!! I cannot understand if the board is just that ignorant or if they have something to hide and that is why they won't accept these offers. We need to stick together as a community and fight for this. If cuts have to be made, fine. We just to research them and make sure they are the right ones for the kids and the budget. We also have to do other things before our academic programs are cut. Even the reading specialist shouldn't be the first to go. Lets close schools, but make sure we have all the info before we do it. How much staff do we lose? How many will be in a class? Which are the best to close financially? I don't think we can answer that this year. We need to slow down. Cut what has already been agreed on. Cut from the administrators ad was suggested and let these amazing financial advisors help us figure out the rest and make the rest of the cuts over the next two years. We need to band together and make the board use these talented people in our community.

Thanks for clearing that up Joe. @Tim - last summer Mr. Pain & Mrs. Schiro (the curriculum director) both left the district. Mrs. Raines stepped up into the Superintendent position, leaving 2 open positions. Mr. Martin was hired as assistant superintendent. My understanding from Saturday's planning workshop is that the director of curriculum & HR director positions have been eliminated completely. Mrs. Raines mentioned a savings of something around $150,000, even after the hiring of Mr. Martin. With the state of the district, would your really want to have EVERYTHING on Mrs. Raines' back? @sad1234 - you're right, no one is going to have the answers overnight. I think Mrs. Raines is moving in the right direction to enlist community involvement. No one can hide any of the financial info - it's all public record. You just have to ask to see it. Don't forget that so many of the players have changed - new super, 3 new board members, soon to be a new business manager. I hazard to guess that a lot more will be coming out before things get better. Don't forget that in 2010 cuts were made and no one knew anything about it until it had already been done. Mrs. Raines continues to open things up to the community. Thank goodness for something.

Thanks Joe, but I hope there isn't a rash of good experienced teachers getting low evaluations in the next couple of years in order for it to be used against them since the evaluations now take precedence over tenure. I think that is something that will need to be monitored. It was posted before that the asst super's salary was $120,000 so if that is the case there is no way the total cost is only $123,000. With benefits it would have to be closer to $145,000 or $150,000. This should be public knowledge so maybe someone knows for sure because you would need to add at least an extra $20,000 for benefits to the total cost when taking in account health and penion benefits. It was also posted on the patch about average salaries admin and teachers as compared to the state. I believe the teachers were below the state average and the admin was above the state average for district 161. I haven't heard anyone bring that up yet.

It is my understanding Joe that this comittee is more of a think tank. That they won't be able to accomplish want they need to like that. That now everything is public record and they need full access. Otherwise, wouldn't they just go in and take all the paperwork and do it without the boards approval?

@Tim again, unless the information that has been going around is wrong the class sizes would not reach anything close to that figure. These schools they are closing are running with class sizes from 15-19. Rogus alone has 12 classes. They could take in 264 students and keep classes at 22. That is not an unreasonable number. Is it as good as 18? No, but that is not something this district can afford to do any longer. Also as the mom stated about the tuition causing a divide of the have and have nots so are the class sizes. My child attends a school with bigger classes. Not large by any means, but still not as low as what those schools are running. I would much rather see the sizes the same across all schools for each grade level. It isn't fair for parents paying the same percentage in taxes to have 2-3 more in a class just because of where they moved. It should be equal distribution of students. If it will really be 30 in a class as many parents who don't have K students wouldn't have been supporting keeping K as there were at the meeting.

@tim, I would have to agree with you as the numbers always seem to keep changing and no one knows what to believe anymore. This whole fiascal started out at a $2mil budget deficit and then a few weeks later Barb Rains said it was $2.5mil and now we are being told they need to cut $3mil. What are we to believe and who should we believe?
@taxpayer, if you are truly just a taxpayer how do you know there is room mostly at Rogus and Mary Drew. Don't tell me you have kids that go to all the elementary schools in 161. It sounds like you think they should close Frankfrot Square and Arbury. Can a board member or admin person come on and confirm this for us or has that just happened?

Update:
http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/10537724-522/summit-hill-161-hopes-to-reduce-teacher-raises.html

@Readers:

Quick note to tell everyone that there have been some great comments and discussions here and in some of the other related stories. People are keeping it civil but passionate, which, selfishly, makes my job easier, but also gets a better conversation going.

One thing you might not know: I look at the questions you ask here and the discussions you have to see what I might be missing in this coverage. This is your website, too, and the stories I report on need to matter to you. I just want you to know that this isn't a one-way street where you just read the stories. You contribute as well.

Plus, you guys keep me on my toes with your questions. Keep it up!

Joe Vince
Local Editor, Frankfort

@Taxpayer ~ Both the podcast and the power point presented was given to the ENTIRE school community it has stated that "the open classrooms" you are talking are JUST regular education classrooms.
NO SPECIALS. It has been said over and over. Again Mrs. Rains would be more then happy to answer your question, she has mine...go to her before you ask the question on a public forum. You will get the correct answer if you go directly to the source.
She is NOT leaving the community out, the information has been provided, and she is willing to answer all questions. The community is aware of the problems, and we need to work with Mrs. Rains and the board so we could continue to provide great schools for our children. Her motto is "doing more with less" we're going to have to get used to that....not just district 161 families, but governement, high schools, businesses, churches, etc....

Joe it was my understanding(from talking to people at the meeting) that not everything they needed to analyze the true scope of the districts finances were public record. I asked someone at the meeting after she spoke why they didn't just take the records and comb through it themselves and offer the board suggestions and that is what several people said. I guess I just assumed that must be true since they are not just going and getting the records and doing it.
I do not think they should have any decision making rights, but it would be nice to hear suggestions from people who do this for a living. I also think this community is very supportive and if these "free consultants" came up with great suggestions that didn't impact the kids/curriculum we would rally behind them so that the board would really look at what they are suggesting.
@informed every single class may not be exactly the same and obviously those numbers would change each year, but by consolidating schools we would have a more even distribution. Also as the numbers change a building would add and drop sections. So a large 2nd grade population would mean adding a section one year, but dropping it the next and then adding an extra 3rd grade to accomidate this population the next year. So while I know every 2nd grade in the district won't have exactly the same numbers, it would still would give a more even distribution.

@taxpayer, OMGoodness no inconvenience...but we truly need to encourage poster and community members to go back to the great source of information...Mrs. Rains.
citizens in district 161 are being given information from District officials and in my opinion ----- they are not listening.
The supt. has given us info. (alot of it) and posters post questions that Mrs. Rains has gone over and over. I just wish they would call her...Joe is doing a terrificjob, answering these questions but i have heard Rains say over and over to please contact her. I'm just sick of people putting down every single option. I have a sick stomach and I just don't want to see a referendum....so many members of our community cannot afford what they have, we cannot make it worse. We need to support and hold each other up during this terrible economic time. Mrs. Raines has said over and over "we need to do more with less."

@informed here is just a sample of what next year would look like if Arbury was closed and they merged all students with DJR:
1st:NA I can't tell this b/c I don't know how many K students DJR and ABH have coming in.
2nd:based on current enrollment in 1st graders for both schools they would need 7 sections to keep class sizes under 22. Currently there are 5 sections at DJR so we would need 2 of the 12 classes that are open.
3rd:based on current enrollment in 2nd for both schools they would need 7 classes to keep class sizes under 22. Again there are 5 currently at DJR so they would need another 2 of the 12 that are open.
4th:based on current enrollment in 3rd for both schools they would need 8 classes to keep class sizes under 22. There are currently 4 so they would need 4 of the 12 that are open.
Based on these numbers there would still be 4 of the 12 open classes left for first plus the 4 they currently have. Meaning that unless there are 176 students coming in the class sizes would all be under 22.

Unless the numbers online are off these numbers seem very reasonable for class sizes.

Believe it or not, there are parents that don't want their kids to go to Rogus. That isn't a slam on the school or it's teachers, it's just a fact. There are MD parents who don't want to send their kids to FS or IT. All of our schools are great because of our teachers & parents volunteers. It would be great if we could look past the front doors. Each building has it's own stigma, & it's sad. People expect the board to separate emotion from their decisions. That's a lot for a community to expect, when they themselves speak out at meetings tearful, fearful, angry, etc. Like them or not, each board member asked the community to vote for them because they cared enough about the future of all of the students & faculty, to take on this burden. And it is a burden these days. Everyone has an opinion & they are forced to listen & take it. Have you ever wondered why they don't respond to people who are making comments at the meeting? They aren't allowed. I'm not sure about any of you, but when I feel like I'm being personally attacked I defend myself. Board members have to look at the entire picture. Even the most astute community observer like Ted doesn't have all the facts that board members do. They spend hours training, learning & working with admin to find the best option for all of us. No matter what they decide they will be criticized by someone. I hope the new committee finds the magic bullet. But they should know, there will be people who don't like what they have to say too.

@taxpayer I see the class sizes you have listed for DJR are 6 higher than what I had thought. Again, at the meeting someone said 12. So that is even better if there are 19 b/c there is more room to grow. If these class numbers 12 or 19 are right and the enrollment posted online is right honestly I cannot see how we can justify keeping two extra schools open. I know a lot of people are upset b/c MD is so new, so maybe they could find a way to move FS to MD and IT and AH to DJR. They would need approx. 13 classrooms to accomidate the enrollment they show for FS to keep all classes under 22. There are 18 between MD and IT. Again 5 extra for any growth. FS is only 1.1 miles away from IT and .87 of a mile from MD. It looks like very few classroom teacher would be cut. All classes stay under 22. We would save on 2 buildings, admin, secretaries and some who teach specials would be cut. They may have to add to transportation to make this work, but overall I think it would bring in a huge savings. I am curious to read why people think this will not work. I am sure b/c I am no expert there are some things I am overlooking, but looking at it it seems like a no brainer.

Not 3 taxpayer 2. FS and AH.
@ concerned parent I think that is a good idea too. Though they would only save on a principal b/c all K teachers for the most part would follow. I also didn't mean that this should be done next year, I was just giving the example using the current enrollment. I agree 100% that the schools need to be looked at and what would really be the most cost effective schools to close. I just think that it is something that does have to be done in the future unless we see our enrollment increase a lot. I don't think the board should make any decisions too quickly without real research to back it up. It is what has been going on and almost what happened with FDK. Cutting that too will bring down property values. It seems like a lose lose situation when we look at the property values. I see your point on the empty buildings, but who would move here when they can move to Frankfort and get very good schools and FDK. I do think that this is a very tough situation.

And by specials I mean art, PE, music, tech etc. That is how they have them listed on the website, as specials.

I had to re-read what you wrote. Sorry about that. You mean moving FS kids to MD & IT right? Whatever they decide, I am sure it will be well thought out. No one in their right mind would volunteer their time if they were not in for the children. No one has the right answer. I believe Ms. Rains is educated enough to bring this district in a positive direction.

I am sorry but this Union president is working with the board and his relationship is affecting judgement. We also need to protect the teachers! Whatever the board decides it is not gonna sit well because the community now does not have faith. I believe the closing of the schools was always where this was heading. Sad!

l

Sounds like administrators and support staff will be taking the brunt of all this madness. Teachers were asked to open their contract and give back a little and they said NO!! No need to worry about the teachers, they take good care of THEMSELVES! Remember, it's all about the KIDS!

informed: I have heard the same about the union president. The difference is the Vice president is not dog walking all night long. Lets keep this civil people. This is about our kids. We need to work together!

@Lynn, it doesn't surprise me that the Union President dog walks. He volunteers his time and efforts whenever needed. For instance, I saw that he has emceed the last two talent show benefits held at the Jr. high, I have seen him dressed up at the Jaycee haunted house, I noticed he is helping with additional fundraising by supporting the foundation - dancing with the teachers, I have heard he attends any and all events that this school community sponsors.

The dog walking seems minor compared to all his other kind acts in the community.
It sounds like he is friend to ALL.

By the way just wondering why nobody is taking any notice of the VICE president of the teachers Union's connection with
Mr. Doyle. Let's not shine such a bright light on Smalter unless we can shine it on EVERYONE. I bet he would walk your dog if you asked him too.

@a concerned parent, actually my real concern was when a teacher I ran into yesterday told me that the vice president of the union has small children, she must live in this district and wanted Dist 161 to keep full day kindergarten. And Guess what Sean William Doyle was the magic bullet that made that happen...

hummm when @concerned parent quoted at 9:20am TODAY (prior to my comment this morning) :
"I am sorry but this Union president is working with the board and his relationship is affecting judgement".

That is perfectly fine to post, but after I heard what I heard yesterday from this teacher i feel the union VP could have definitely influenced Mr. Doyle's change of heart.... So yes, i am shocked when I heard that she may have used her relationship with Mr. Doyle...because it is on record that he did reverse his decision.

I hope members of this community not only watch who is walking who's dog, but
watch out for other relationships as well.

Vp is not spending the night. Whats in it for the dog walker???? Principal job??? As far as volenteering time, so do many other teachers, but they are not affecting the districts well being. As far as Jaycees things - again that is his personal time he wants to spend with his dog walker friend. Lets try and work for the best interest of the kids.

@lynn - "Vp is not spending the night".you we know that for sure...?
Mr. Doyle and the VP can do whatever they want with their personal time...

just reminding members of this community not only watch who is walking who's dog, but watch out for other relationships as well. you are correct all teachers are fantastic,

@9:20am "I am sorry but this Union president is working with the board and his relationship is affecting judgement". That was the comment posted.

Why are we always talking about the union president....what part of his relationship with the board is disturbing to you? I have not seen or heard of business benefits going in either direction, so what is this huge issue. He has been friends with the members of the board for years!

Has the union president received a principal's job in our district for next year?
Is that a done deal? Which school?
That may actually be a plus for the district, not him!!

Why do we care about dog walking?? Lets get serious, this does have relevance to our community. I urge people to go out and vote when board members are up for re election. We are all watching and its sad to see what is happening here.

@sherri, I agree with you... my hope is that members of this community not only watch who is walking who's dog, but watch out for other relationships as well. You are right, Dog walking is getting old and very petty...it's just a distraction from what is really going on and the important issues.

@Everyone:

Please stop with the veiled accusations of impropriety and unethical conduct between board members and union officials. If you have actual evidence that isn't simply water cooler rumor-mongering, e-mail or call me, use your real name, and we'll talk. I definitely want to know about it and will investigate it.

Otherwise, keep it out of the comments section. There's been such a good discussion going on. Let's not cheapen it.

Thanks,

Joe Vince
Local Editor, Frankfort

@Joe, How do you decide when you are going to stop the negative comments?
You seem to be choosing to put the fires out sometimes between boards and union officals...it seems to be inconsistent.
If your going to put out one, you need to put out all.

Is Sean William Doyle calling you...... complaining?

@informed:

1) No board members have called to complain about these comments. Also, Doyle wasn't the only board member being discussed in this thread.

2) This isn't about negative comments. Readers have been free to criticize officials here without me saying a peep. When it gets into the realm of unsubstantiated claims about personal lives and improper behavior is when I'll step in. I haven't deleted the comments, but I want to stop the comments drift and have people stick to the topic.

3) If it looks like I'm inconsistent, some of it is because I give the commenters some space (except in extreme cases of bad behavior) before I step in. The other reason is I'm only human, and I miss some comments.

Does that answer some of your concerns?

Joe Vince
Local Editor, Frankfort

@Joe Vince, just because someone says teachers union president or vice president of the board of education or the president of the board of education doesn't mean they're not naming people. (they could look it up online) This is a double standard.....be fair to ALL!

@Joe, you should have stopped the conversation @9:20am on 2/11! Or before this,
if it is true about posting unsubstantiated claims. I'm sick of hearing about the dog walker and the sleep overs....all unsubstantiated claims.
@920am TODAY! "I am sorry but this Union president is working with the board and his relationship is affecting judgement." Where is the verification on this statement?
@Joe, if this is what this blog is intended for, and you want all unsubstantiated claims
to stop then why have a blog....because all of it is unsubstantiated claims. This is the danger of a blog like this....Union VP does have very small children, she is friends with Doyle, and Doyle did reverse his vote and we all know the union president is friends with EVERYONE! All I did is put it all together. Why stop it now, when we continue to hear about the same crap over and over again!

Not to mention Barb Rains spends a multitude of hours explaining in detail over and over, people come on your blog and destory her message along with her plans. So either catch it right away or shut down the blog.

Bottom line...these blogs are dangerous and unnessary. How do you decide whats true and what isn't?

@joe, by the way your stories are great....
Your doing a great job keeping the community aware of what is going on
and you seem to be fair in your articles. Your blog is unfair and unnecessary.

Thanks Joe. We need to stay focused on the real issues here. I would like to make one comment to Sue Bauer. It's not fair of you to bash the teachers or their contract that was negotiated in good faith. Would it be great if they wanted to refuse a pay increase - of course. But they don't have to. And you should not be persecuting them for refusing. However, I don't think anything has been said officially yet. Our teachers work damn hard. I think you would be hard pressed to find ANYONE who would refuse a pay increase these days. Sue - are you aware that teachers spend their 'free' time on preparing lesson plans or grading papers? They spend their own money on supplies? Before you go slamming people who spend more time during the day with kids than most parents, take a deep breath and think about what you're saying. And then take a good look in the mirror and tell the rest of us how YOU are sacrificing for the kids in this district!

@Rose C, you are correct teachers negotiated their contract in good faith. many teachers work hard educating our children. They bring work home and attend school events when their "off the clock"....thank you for supporting our teachers and their contract.

I believe the district reimburses teachers for some supplies...I'm sure they still spend money out of their own pocket during the school year on supplies.

I am quite concerned about how our board is "operating". On Saturday, they have a workshop where they decide to cut FDK to HDK as well as make a few other cost saving efforts. They leave the boardroom, with a decision, after reaching a concensus. They give Superintendent Rains the job to implement these changes. Superintendent Rains e-mails parents and staff on Sunday with the boards decision and direction. She probably met with the kindergarten staff before Wednesday's Board Meeting and told them the changes that would take effect for the 2012-13 school year. Everything is in place and she is setting things in motion. Then the board decides to reinstate full day kindergarten. Is this the way a board should operate? Should Superintendent Rains have to deal with a different direction from the board four days later? Should she be "surprised" at the board table by this vote? I guess, I am really disappointed in the way the board is "operating" or the "process" of how decisions are made. Please, think through your decisions, do not make hasty decisions, and do not keep changing the direction you are giving the superintendent to follow!! It isn't right!!

@ Joe Thanks for the good articles, and keeping us up-to-date and informed about what is happening in our school district!! I did try to get in on the "live blog" on Wednesday nights board meeting, but the "Patch Site" was down and I wasn't able to. My suggestions for cutting the budget would be:
1.) I have heard that the Principals and Assistant Principals get full "Family Insurance Coverage" for free. If this is true, perhaps they could get free single insurance and have to pay for the "family". This could save the district money. In the "real world" employees do not get free insurance. They pay a portion for single insurance as well. Just a suggestion...
2.) I have heard that when a Superintendent or Principal decides to retire early that the district has to pay TRS for it. Do you know if that is true? If so, could you provide the amounts that the district paid for the early retirements of Supt. Pain and for the FDK Principal last May/June and for the Arbury Hills principal who retired two years ago? Couldn't something be written into their contracts that states if they decide to retire early that they are "solely" responsible for the early retirement cost to TRS? I think that might save some money in our district and not hurt the children's education. Since contracts are yearly, this could help out in the 2012-13 school year and beyond. Just a suggestion........

@ My Two Cents - I'm not defending anyone here, but I will say it again. Only one Board Member changed direction on Mrs. Raines. Sean Doyle. Everyone else came down on the same side as they did on Saturday. I'm not saying he's right or wrong - but he is the ONLY person who changed their mind Wednesday night. I think the discussion at both meetings was better than we've seen in the past - open dialog. To say you have a problem with the 'process' confuses me. The board gave Mrs. Raines direction last Saturday. A board member asked that FDK be put on the agenda for Wednesday. After a discussion - pretty much the same discussion from Saturday - the vote was cast and the direction changed because of Mr. Doyle. The difference between Saturday to Wednesday, a different audience. FDK parents came out. Mr. Doyle changed his mind - with no explanation, and being touted by some as a hero. Really? Now the board has to find other places to cut - possibly close a building or 2. I look forward to see which school can pressure Mr. Doyle the hardest and ultimately keep their building off the chopping block. He seems to be the only one waffling, you should call him and ask him about his process and why he 'surprised' Mrs. Raines at the meeting. You cannot blame the other 6 for creating confusion - at least not this time.

@ Rose - Perhaps, I was being too kind and did not single out a specific board member. I did not intend to give the impression that I was blaming the other 6 board members for creating confusion either. Sorry!! This is how I view things. The "board" of education is comprised of 7 elected individuals. Each board member is important and has the same "role". No individual board member is "greater" or "better" than any other board member. No individual board member can give the Superintendent direction, it has to come from the "board" as a whole! When a decision is made by the seven individual board members, it is a "board decision". When the board of education made their decision on Saturday to eliminate FDK and only offer HDK it was a board concensus. A decision had been made and direction was given to the superintendent to proceed in a certain direction. She went with that direction. Then at the board meeting when an individual board member voted a different way, it had a HUGE impact on the previous direction the superintendent was previously given. That is what I feel is wrong. I expect board members to talk and discuss their feelings at the board table. But when a decision is made and you give the superintendent direction you can't change that decision. If board members keep changing their minds at every board meeting over MAJOR decisions we're in trouble! Also, you will always hear that it was a "board decision" not a decision made by board member X.

@ My two cent - I agree. The board had made a decision. I was just pointing out that it is unfair to take issue with the entire board when one board member changed course. You seem to be the first person on this site who doesn't blame specific board members, which should be commended. I have read many a post attacking members of the board specifically or blaming the entire board for actions that took place well before this board (April 2011) was in place. I apologize if you felt like I was attacking you. We need more people that see the entire picture and understand HOW a board works.