THAT'S FAIR

AGREED!!! I SHOULD OF BEEN THERE

right on !

Couldn't agree more! Can't stand your ground in Illinois, you have to run away from it..

Ya....well unfortunately, you'd be the one going to jail.

Concealed carry for all law abiding citizens...

Good Idea.... you are right

and if you miss and kill a little kid standing 500 feet away?

y first thought was "I wish I was there to give this filthy vermin a surprise". I've carried for 30 years, it pisses off my wife, but now she understands why a little better.

LOL,
NR, did it dawn on you that if people took action like this back in the day, the kkk would have never ever have become a threat to our society?

I live in a state where it is legal to conceal and carry. Many do not realize it but it (hand gun) does not have to be concealed. I do not wish to intimidate those who have no intentions of trying to ruin my day. For those whom feel they can force their will on me with the display of, say a knife, have now taken a bit of more than they can chew. I WILL show my will of non-compliance with deadly force, and let jurors decide my fate, not the would be taker of my life. I would not live in a state where I do not have the "privilege" of carrying a weapon. If you come at me with other than a gun, you will loose. If you have a gun, I will make every intelligent effort, if that moment is liable, to draw mine and make you as dead as I possible can. I do not believe any American should not have the opportunity to defend his life or the lives of those dear to him.

USMC Semper Fi!

I agree with your reason and logic.

USMC Semper Fi!

WoW really it seems to me that people are getting more crazy everyday first you have the crazys hitting w bats and hammers then you have the even more extream nuts wanting to shoot on sight what is wrong with this whole picture?????stop hating and hurting!!!!!!! there is only one Judge he is watching...........good luck........

You all talk a mean game......you probably would have SH*T your pants and passed out. I love all the "typing tough guys".

I believe in C and C and I am sure these punks would have run if they saw a 9mm pointed at them.

Terrorist?

Restaurant.

Karen, I agree 100% Even if it's not legal here, better to be fined for it than killed

Hi Charlie. Thanks for commenting. We're waiting on those details. Will keep you updated.

Joan, having a differing opinion or agenda does not make it open season.

incorrect..this was a restaurant and here in indiana, it is up to the restaraunt if i may carry my gun in there or not...but the state haS no right to allow or disallow my ability to carry at a resaraunt or other business

Usually it's schools and government buildings that guns are not permitted, otherwise it is up to the business owner if they want to allow guns. Also, bars or taverns where alcohol accounts for the majority of sales, have restrictions of guns. That being said, Illinois should get with the program. If a law abiding citizen pulled out a gun, those cowards that preyed on innocent families while they ate would have fled and a shot probably would not have even been necessary.

John, most of us are not pontificating 'bravado' as you put it. Illinois is the only state that does now allow CCW. I am a certified pistol shooter by the NRA. I took the safety classes, did the range time.

I am tired of these punks coming in and beating people, I am tired of the crap that is going on downtown with the summit.

Speak for your self dude....

As wrong as it may be to laugh, I had to laugh at that :P

George, I noticed a comment of yours above related to the race of these assailants. I'm deleting it momentarily. I absolutely encourage you to be part of this conversation. However, let's keep it friendly, productive and most of all, sane.

you are probably a coward and would of wet your pants

ME TOO!

Jack Bauer could kick all their butts.....even if Chuck Norris was on their side.

I am walking distance myself and a bit ticked that Tinley did not send out an alerts via their emergency text alert system. I hope everyone injured has a quick recovery.

Wont happen in Florida either apparently....

Sometime freedom does cost some life but the way it is now a lot of lives are lost in Chicago every day, why there is less crime in the states that allow carrying guns, you let me know

"what's the LAW gonna do arrest you ?"
Yes.

"big deal post your bond & go home alive"

And have a felony conviction for life and NEVER be able to possess a gun or ammunition.

I agree with Baba Wawa.... Its a slippery slope and not to mention most people will have a hard time positing bond on a potential murder charge.

Frank, You are exactly right. And this is CROOK County.

probably wont change much at all 90% of gun crimes are drug related,

Glers, you are thoroughly muddled. Where in this thread are we discussing "gun crime"? The comment you're addressing discussed general crime rates. Aside from your confusion on the topic itself, are you saying that gun crimes are only related to drugs in our state? And if not, then how do you get around the empirical, inarguable fact that every state which allows open or concealed carry has a decrease in violent crime?

Can the Patch delete the "George Zimmerman" who is begging for attention with every post.

Trust me I have gotten enough attention for the past 2 months. Additionally I have actually been positively contributing to the arguments presented in the comments.

Hi, Mr. Munrone —

We appreciate your feedback. The commenter has stayed within the Terms of Use put in place by Patch editors. The one instance in which he crossed the line, he deleted the comment himself. He, and all other commenters, are invited to comment and welcome to contribute as long as they follow those rules. We're keeping a close eye on this comment thread and will do our best to keep it up to Patch standards.

Thank you,
Lauren Traut
Associate Regional Editor

Thank you Lauren for your considerations. With this being said I will make sure that I stay within the Terms of Use put in place by Patch Editors.

John,
We are confirming that information on the race of the assailants. It's still a fluid situation. Which Trib Local do you work for?

So what you are saying is that only black people are in gangs........You're a complete idiot and should stop using this board.

What he is saying is that most street gangs in the Greater Chicago area are mostly comprised of black people. Not only is it not idiotic to suggest this, it's pretty accurate.

However, that most black people are in street gangs is also ridiculous. Also, that black people cannot be politically connected. Sure, you can report the race, but most of us readers will stereotype stupidly.

Ha, not only are you stereotyping and using racist generalizations but you're also making uneducated, misinformed, ignorant assumptions. If they're white, NATO! If they're black, GANG! Ehhh....sure, dude. Politically correct, my ass. Their skin color doesn't mean anything, let's try thinking before talking.

Yes John, knowing the race of the assailants would be helpful so "people could avoid people in similar costumes" Really, your an idiot!

You know what? You are absolutely right. Thank you for showing the error of my ways. I have deleted the comment.

Right On Dave!!!

Well one things for sure, I'm not a hillbilly vigilante. I'm a neighborhood watch captain.

You sound like a typical anti-gun person: misguided opinions that cannot be backed up with facts. Maybe you should do a little research to back up your claim. Every state except Illinois now allows some form of carrying a gun. In every or almost every case where a concealed carry law was passed, violent crime was reduced. Safe havens for criminals, such as the city of Chicago, continue to lead the nation in murders. How can that be if concealed carry is illegal in these places?? Maybe it's because only the criminals carry guns here. It's fine that you have no desire to protect yourself or your family from potential harm, but it is unnecessary to insult those who wish to have this freedom. Remember, "When seconds count, police are only minutes away."

Jeff: sorry, but you can't say my opinion cannot be backed up by facts, because it can. Your argument can too, but that does not make you right. So easy on telling others to back up their statements with facts when you can't even do that yourself.

Here are my facts: http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf
That is a link to a PDF brochure called gun facts. Pages nine and ten back me up.
Here is a snippet: "Statistics for each CCW state show that crime rate fell
(or did not rise) after the right-to-carry law became active."
Everything in the brochure is properly cited with the original source. Read through it, you have a lot to learn. Now show me some facts that back you up.

spoken like someone that hasnt lived in a concealed state. When the bad guys know the good guys are carrying as well...they are forced to become more smart. While there still are thugs, and stupid thugs at that, they are forced to know that the person they may rob/beat/rape may be holding the end of their life deep in their waistband. FYI, I carry in my state where its legal, and I carried in my ex state where it isn't. When shit goes down (regardless of where I am) and I protect myself and my family with my weapon I could care less what the law 'suggested' I do. And if a jury puts me away for protecting my children by putting one between the eyes of the person attacking us...so be it. My family will live on.

Hey Paul, good luck with your mentality. We, as citizens, have a right to protect ourselves, though I know you have the same thougt as the POTUS - get rid of the 2nd amendment. I doubt you have ever been in a life-threatening situation. What would you do - throw you remote from your tv at them? Get real, dude.

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayres_Donohue_article.pdf

Look people. I just posted evidence against your argument, that was researched by a well respected Yale lawyer/economist. I'm sure you're going to post stuff like Jeff did, that has a counter argument, but if you do, you should really look for sources that are slightly less biased than Guy Smith. In any case, I appreciate that there is little evidence that clearly shows one side to be right and the other to be wrong.

Why do you use a racial slur against Southern White people. Liberals and Dems are O.K. with insulting whites.

ever heard of the subway vigalante who protected himself from thugs?He saved his own life,dont leave your safety in other peoples hands do what you need to protect your families life whatever means possible.

Right on! finally someone who makes sense

Paul, unfortunately you are an uninformed, inaccurate bigot.

In an effort to educate you, I'll speak slowly. I am educated, intelligent, and successful. I carry concealed to level the playing field in a life threatening situation. I am not now, nor have I ever been a hillbilly. No concealed carry law or stand your ground law conceeds vigilanteism. Any use of deadly force "after the fact" is considered vengeance and is eschewed by any self respecting carrier. I highly recommend you read any of the statistics regarding felonies prevented by law abiding armed citizens. And it's conceal(ed) carry Einstein. I would have presupposed that an opiner with such a polysyllabic propensity would have spelled the term correctly, or had access to spell check.

Well, apparently you're a racist, not a victim. As a concerned Tinley Park resident, I think it serves you right!!! Seems your family thinks so, too.

Fake George Zimmerman? How about Fake Tammy? How generic.

Since when was I impersonating the George Zimmerman? I'm not the one to speculate but it could be because he is bored out of his mind.

FYI, George Zimmerman is omnipresent. He is only marginally superceded by Chuck Norris.

Killshot: it's spelled civil, not cival... but your poor grammar aside, there is no clear evidence showing that conceal carry laws reduce crime. Cite whomever you like, there is always a counter argument.

Paul it's (Checked)

Michlz68: that doesn't even make sense.

Yes it is.

Yes Braden your head was split open and now your commenting on the patch. Sorry your a liar!

"As far as guns go, it's your right to have them, how you use them is up to the individual" so why would I let my life be indangered because everyone can carry and they are responsible for their own actions. So im just suuposed to be okay with some random guy carrying and maybe shooting me because hes responsible? oh yea thats real satisfying to hear.

sorry pat, comment was directed at deb melchert. You have a point, sir.

Christian, you asked "...so why would I let my life be indangered because everyone can carry and they are responsible for their own actions."

Because it is our U.S. Constitution and is the supreme law of the land. Are you a law-abiding citizen? If so, the Constitution trumps all else. Do you suggest we ignore the document which is the foundation for all of our law? Tell us how that works.

Ryan, I'm for Conceal Carry, and in the United States people still have a right to their opinion. If someone posted on here that they carry, knowing the consequences, that is their right. We are all adult here, and don't need to be censored.

I agree with you John. You just never know what might happen until put in the situation.

so in your demonstration the police were actualy shooting at you and you rendered there weapons useless to you,sounds like the matrix!.Have to believe anyone that fires a weapon is going to cause a speedy retreat!

I agree with most of what you said but training doesn't necessarily insure success. I have been in combat and seen the "tough" talkers knuckle under. No one really knows what thier actions will be until they are ACTUALLY presented with the situation.

Good for you Tom, you are right. I like the saying...." When SECONDS count, Police are just MINUTES away" The police can never PROTECT us. They fill out reports after you or a family member has been the victim... they never stop the criminal from harming you.

I dont care who you are and how trained you are. good for you, im happy your wel trained, i still dont want you to decide whether you can shoot me or not just cause you can carry and your well trained. Why should I trust you with a gun or anyone else in that matter thats not the police?

This is awesome! The group that busted in, that pretty much EVERYONE in this group wanted to shoot with their sidearm, were busting the heads of Neo-Nazis! LOL! Looks like all those gun-toting hip bad-a** NRA loving morons would be shooting at the GOOD GUYS!

What's done in the dark will be brought to the light... especially in my hometown.

Never again :p

Paul, we would have seen the tattoos and reacted appropriately.

Paul, your comment is that of a pig. A gang beatdown with deadly weapons, and you cheer for it? Just because you disagree with the victims?

And then, you ignorant bigot, liken gunowners and NRA members to white supremacists?

Your attitude is puke-worthy.

Paul, White Nationalism has little, if anything, to do with National Socialism. You can be a White Nationalist without being a 'Neo'-Nazi. White Nationalism is just that, the premise that a White country is of benefit for the survival of the White race. BTW, White people are a worldwide Minority, and fast becoming a minority within the US and Europe. So, advocating the destruction of the White race is indeed...Genocide. So-called 'Anti-Racists' are really advocating the destruction of the White race and White culture. Anti-Racist equals Anti-White.

Have you ever thought that it would just drive the criminals to do more crimes with guns and shoot first more often? Violence begets violence. It's been true for centuries.

You obviously know nothing of tasers, how they work on restricting the major muscles, and what the reaction time is. Ever has a huge and immediate cramp? Take that times ten and then try to swing a hammer.

Pat...that might be the sillyest comment yet. You have obviously never been in a fight. A chair might be adequate to block a blow, but it's not a weapon. The perps do not need to be identified personally to be a terrorist. A flash mob of politically motivated thugs attacked a "meeting" with weapons. Terrorists.

Danielle: You've been brainwashed by the Liberal education system, as I once was. You cannot be psychologically integrated without liking yourself. Including what race you are. Evidently you harbor negative feelings for the White race, and those Whites who are not ashamed of being White. That basically says that you are unhappy about being White or you have some 'Inherited Guilt' feelings for being born White. In psychological terms this is called being 'dystonic'. BTW, the expression "White Supremacist" is code word for any White person who is not ashamed for being White, and has no 'Inherited Guilt' feelings for being born White. Its use is designed to stop any discussion the Liberal is losing to a rational person, or to justify harming someone who is slandered with it. You should listen more closely to what your brother says to you, instead of disrespecting and dishonoring him on a public forum. I would also advise you to become more well read. Read Wilmot Robertson's "The Dispossed Majority", David Duke's "My Awakening". Watch some of David Dukes videos on Youtube. These things will free your mental constructs from the Liberal, Anti-White Racist Indoctrination. Please do not let your mind be closed by people who want to take the White Race out of existence.

Steve,

Your comment was deleted because it disclosed personal information about another commenter.

Thank you,
Lauren Traut
Associate Regional Editor

So defending yourself or someone else against violent attack is bad vigilantism but violently attacking a group (however repugnant) while they are sitting at lunch likely breaking no laws is good!

I certainly would shed no tears over nazi's getting beat up, and certainly would do no more than dial 9-1-1, but those anti-fascists are not the 'good guys' and are nothing more than violent lawbreakers.

Hope you are tracking pretty much every comment by White Irish Heritages, along with the sequels, 2 and 3. They get worse as they go along...if those don't seek to promote "racism, bigotry, hatred" I don't know what does.
Good luck.

Great journalism all day and night, Patch!!!! You were way ahead of the Suntimes and Trib and TV!!!! They should credit you for the info regarding an anti-facist radical group setting up and then attacking a white supremacist group. These people are all crazy...Serious props to Mike Winston, too, for his fantastic quotes and for his courage in protecting his business, livelihood, employees, and customers. I am an avid PalosPatch reader (go Dan Lambert!), and I am now a huge fan of Carrie and Ben!.

It was amazing to see how relucant the mainstream press was to actually source/report what was actually going on. Kudos Patch People! Great job!!!!!!

Lauren - Im my opinion, you should have left this one closed to additional comments. Way too many comments promoting racism and additional hate crimes against people. Check out the additional comments below by Chad)), Weiß-Stolz, & SteveBlake.

Huh? Which clowns? The Neo-Nazis? Yes?

They probably don't go after blacks or hispanics because...they aren't white? If they are white themselves, why would they target minorities...if they aren't, why would they target themselves...so that part doesn't make sense...

White people don't need to plan for the extinction of other races, they just have to realize that the party they identify more with, the GOP is largely funded by the same people who own the factories that give jobs to the people the racists are worried most about. Shooting themselves in their own metaphoric foot...so to speak. No jobs, all those people the racist fear will go 'home', because they are not here on vacation or for the weather.

Any chance you will go back to Kentucky?

Jerry...in Kentucky it's both.

Here in Florida, concealed carry is a way of life. Law abiding citizens that carry offer another level of protection for the average Joe. As good as TPPD is, they only arrived AFTER the people were injured. One lawfully armed citizen might have deterred these morons.

Iggy...

There is a significant difference between white supremacist militia and a social group that supports white lifestyle, commerce and heritage. The bottom line is that a peaceful meeting was terrorized by armed thugs.

Agreed Sara...But since the protesters DID decide to use violence against a peaceful meeting, those people should have the right to defend themselves, or stop the attack.

"I obviously do not have all the facts,"
No, you don't.

"and level no accusations, "
But your first sentence is how you're distressed as a Tinley Park resident by the slow response time of the police department.

"and I begin to wonder if TPPD is reluctant to respond to such calls ..."
Reluctant to respond? Seriously?

"we need to know our first responders are willing to confront the dangers folks are being disarmed against..."
You need to know if first responders are willing to confront danger? Double seriously?

What specious arguments.
And for whatever it is worth, I am pro concealed carry.

Ask any police officer and they don't have to intervene if it puts them in danger. They only have to respond when they can. Police response time is always too late.....wouldn't you want to rather protect yourself then expect the police to show up late and be dead

I think they just want to wipe people with your mentality. White people are their own worst enemy, have been throughout history.
Not to agree with your view, but to take it for a moment to prove this point...the most successful 'empires' (defining the term broadly) in history have always been more inclusive and done more to integrate 'conquered' peoples. Those that tried to enslave or vanquish or segregate various peoples lost power much quicker. You don't have to believe me...it is books, written by white people, just so you know.
I have a bad feeling you won't like what you read though...

Darth...please.

Decent people deserve the right to defend themselves against thugs. There is an elaborate justice system to preserve the rights of the criminal, yet law abiding citizens are vilified for defending home and family in Illinois. This needs to change. Coward ? I assure you that if they had walken in unarmed, there would have been a different result. Bring your lunch Sally, it's going to be a long day.

Yes Darth they sure are

Who wants to risk thier family or safety? Who wants to be the victim because they followed the rules? If you are unable to defend yourself due to stature or age. Damn right ! just dont pull until the moment of confrontation, then remember your goal to just walk away!

Steve, you realize that you just said all white people are racist, right?
It isn't genocide to just want to get rid of the racist, no matter what color they are...that is just thinning the herd of the terminally stupid.
You should really watch out, if that is the case.
Do you even KNOW why the various groups of immigrants are in America? I doubt it...that would require something beyond reading the pamplets the "European Heritage" people gave you.

You sir are an idiot ! who is going to work in the kitchen's? Who is going to do the labor? Like ashford house does not have any Mexicans from Mexico working there!. Your point is what makes me laugh... White people from the usa competing for the lowest levels of jobs and ranting on third worlders or those of a limited education..let them do what they are good at or are you going to start an all white NBA team....
These guys come 2000 miles to look for jobs??? lmfao No organization or managerial talent that whites are known for ?? Last time i checked very few black panthers can be bought with drugs woman or money. Can any biker or Nazi say that? Last time i checked guy like that eat at restaurants they know who owns, buy goods from places with like minds.. However these guys do not. The white can learn from the camaraderie of the black...
Get good at something than you wont worry about someone taking your job....

Agreed Steve...you do not see a long line to emigrate to Somalia.

I Cant Biker I would get the 2 cousins to make up and crown me KING. Joke of course unless you think what would happen if a bunch of military guys did for whatever reason(business wives or just liked it there after they were stationed there)...
I need to backtrack on the immigration deal Some hospitals in Texas have a single digit pay rate for any procedures 5 out of 100 for births.... Beyond that all the money goes out of the USA. Illegal money ok sure but dishwasher money ?? The key to immigration is sponsorship and a alien tax... Its theft from America..

Dave W., he did NOT say all white people are racist. That is your first lie, putting words into SteveBlake's mouth. BTW, my IQ is verified at 129. I am most certainly not 'terminally stupid'. Your remarks are laughably stupid, disingenuous, and just plain outright lies. A classic 'Straw Man Argument', a Logical Fallacy.

danyelle, maybe those punks should not have carried out a violent, terrorist, attack against people peacefully eating at a restaurant. Furthermore, more than the target group were injured by the terrorists. [One of the employees was injured also.] Their families' should suffer the anguish you mention for raising such illogical tools.

So, if it is common it is not news? Tell it to Channon Christian and Christopher Newsome, both murdered, tortured, raped by a gang of blacks. Oh, that's right, if it happened all the time it wouldn't be news. How many people here have heard of the Knoxville murders?

so a patron who is White, or is happy to be White is ok to attack?

I would choose to have NO violence.

If someone breaks into your home/restaraunt with a weapon intent on doing you harm....what are you going to do ? Write your congressman ? Vote differently ? Post on the patch ? You need to take immediate action to defend your life.

Iggy, I am exactly who grew up in TP in the 50s.

As long as they get your first, you despicable excuse for a human being (if that is even true).
Wishing somebody to endure such things because they have a different view of something as gray area'd as gun control? REALLY? You know that if you said that to anybody in person, you would NEED to be carrying, because if not, you would be getting carried out on a stretcher.
Mindless Jerk.

It appears that Anita let them out with a pretty minor bond...$150 to $250K so they only needed to put down $15-$25K. Anyone dount that if this was done to separatists from the "Nation of Islam" from out os state thugs this would be a National story and these guys would be held without bond?

Crossing state lines with the intent to deprive someone of their civil rights is a Federal crime. Anyone care to bet that AG Holder won't prosecute?LOL

Bob,

Anita did NOT let them out on a minor bond. The judge is the one that sets the bond, NOT THE STATE'S ATTORNEY OR THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY.

Pithy legal musings from Bob:

"so they only needed to put down $15-$25K."
That's right, only $15,000 and $25,000. In cash. And these guys don't have two nickels to rub together.

"This seems like a pretty clear case of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, mob action, perhaps Federal charges of violation of civil rights, a "hate crime", and perhaps a dozen other charges."

Oh, yes, definitely. You being the arm chair prosecutor, why don't you tell Anita what to do? Give her a call. She's at 26th Street or 69 W. Washington.

"Crossing state lines with the intent to deprive someone of their civil rights is a Federal crime."
It is? Wow. Hurry, call Anita. Tell her she's doing it all wrong.

" ... Anyone care to bet that AG Holder won't prosecute?"
He won't. It's not a federal case, despite your legal acumen about crossing state lines to deprive people of their civil rights, specifically by beating them with hammers and batons and trashing a restaurant in the process.

She did or didnt you hear the one about the kid who supposed to off "hid the bomb in a hollowed out Harry Potter book "ROFL No bomb just BS. I guess he lied to the wrong person. Her loyalities do not lie with the hetrosexual or white people.

Regarding the judge setting bond ... I spent some time in bond court at 26th st a few years ago and the State makes a bond recommendation and then the judge usually follows it, so yes in effect the State's Attorney sets bond.

W Elliot, the State may make a recommendation for a bond, yes. It's a recommendation. The judge listens to that recommendation and then takes into account the defendant's background as well as the nature of the crime and what's called "Gerstein." And if the defendant is a flight risk.

So the judge may set a bond that the State's Attorney recommends, doesn't mean the State's Attorney set the bond. It's the J U D G E that is the one that sets the bond and has the final say. Ultimately the bond is set by the judge.

And in this particular case, the State's Attorney did not make any recommendation for a bond. It was set SOLELY by the judge.

One should also have the right to eat a meal without having ones head smashed in. I don't know if you have ever been to the Ashford House but the majority of the diners are indeed elderly folks from Ireland. Perhaps they can also be charged with physical abuse to the elderly? Everyone has the freedom to believe what they want. No body has the right to take those beliefs to the next level and harm innocent people.

Christian. No concealed carrier wants to shoot ANYONE in cold blood. I might be willing to spill blood to defend my life or my family, but the ONLY thing that could motivate me to shoot would be self defense. No lawful gun owner makes a godlike decision whether "your life" is worth it. If you attack my family or I, your life is secondary to my survival. Keep your hands to yourself, and worry not.

"You allow" us on web sites ? I had no idea you were so powerful.

BIKERX, while Christian might be a bit overreactionary to the 'allowing' of people on a public website thread, his point is not without validation.
The problem is, for people like you, that you get painted with a broad, unfair brush. However, there are people that are UNlike you, who DO want a gun and are a bit too...zealous, shall we say? Just read the comments of some of the people that share your general view. Zimmerman (the actual one) is a prime example of somebody that carried 'lawfully' but created a situation where none existed, even after the police warned him to stand down.
While I have NO problem with people defending themselves or even their property, I am very reluctant to have people that meet the minimum standard for ownership (which is what many carry laws are set at) and pulling a gun in a panic (the usual scenario of defense, including one such as Ashford House), and that person not accidently shooting somebody not related to the conflict. (Think about that...a crowded restaurant, weapons, furniture, people all flying around, how many people can guarantee that they shoot ONLY the "bad guys"? What if they shoot YOUR kid on accident? Best of intentions, BUT your kid is dead, because some guy was within his 'rights' to shoot first...is that okay? No?
I will tell you this, if Zimmerman had shot a white kid, it wouldn't be a white guy who shot a black kid who 'didn't belong there', it would be a hispanic guy who was gun crazy and shot some innocent white kid.

I would rather somebody that cannot spell 'tried' properly not own a gun. I am certain you will not be able to read the owner's manual.

On this thread, because of the topic, it probably is...mine are pending approval too.

The assailants were anti-fascists, and the ones being attacked were taking part in the "5th Annual White Nationalist Economic Summit".
You can read more about it on antiracistaction.org

Keep Calm And Bash the Fash

Chad,

Anti-fascist ? I mean really, a bunch of like minded people that meet to promote their heritage and survival ? Fascists ? Meet with me, I'll give you a history lesson. Now get back to Starbuck's and make me a Venti de-caf.

CHAD, I do have a serious question. Why not target the blatantly racist NBPP ?

BikerX, you make it all sound so very benign. You either know it isn't and you're being disengenuous, or you don't and you are dumber than cabbage. Anybody who knows ANY history of urban American cities knows that given the opportunity, white people segregated themselves by nationality every chance they had. To now claim that they have some COMMON heritage or a need to plan their survival is laughable on its face. Are they gettiing together to talk of when the Irish mob fought with the Italian gangs for turf? When the Germans tried to kill off most of Europe (twice) and ALL the (white) Jews (the second time)? How about when the Inbreds got mad because they couldn't have forced labor do all their work for them anymore? Even better, when the Heroes of the Alamo fought back against Mexico because...wait for it...Texas wanted to leave Mexico so they could keep THEIR slaves and Mexico (those backward people) outlawed slavery! Too hard to remember that part of history? How about the Trail of Tears, where we mighty white men with our guns forced the people who lived in harmony with the Earth for literal millennia to move to small little reservations and if the women, the children, the elderly died on the way, too bad, so sad, not really. Japanese internment camps; another great white guy idea! The only way white people know to 'protect' anything is under a boot heel or at the point of a gun. Shoot first, and don't ask questions, ever. Your Venti decaf is up. You've been served.

Marie...

By far the most lucid, intelligent post thus far. Nice.

Wow, you have clearly, 'emphatically' never heard of a euphemism. You know, a cover story. Like how celebrities use a FAKE name when they DON'T want to be found out for who they REALLY are...
Having said that, it is still not good for America that they were attacked. I just hope all the people on here are going to say the same thing if the groups were reversed...or if the sitting group were black and the attackers were the European Heritage Society. I say that because I read a lot of these forums and it is pretty disgusting at how many people cannot wait to spew racial hatred.

Its more hard to root for the White race being genocided, slandered, and labeled, when one who, through years of indoctrination, does not know who is who or right from wrong. My IQ is rated through the MMPI as 129. I am not the sharpest spoon in the drawer, but I'm also awakened to the apparent organized effort to get the White people to simply quit,
and surrender everything their forefathers left them, White DNA, White racial characteristics, White culture, White way of living.. All this they hope to accomplish by making White people 'minorities' within their own nations. Miscegenation, attrition, active violent murder violence , terrorist tactics, massive immigration of nonwhite people in previously predominantly White population areas. Another way they do this is to restrict the flow of money so White couples are so broke that they end up being able to support just low White birthrates.

Remermber Channon Christian and her boyfried Christopher Newsome, who were both raped, sodomized, tortured, and finally murdered in Knoxville. If this is the first time You have heard of this black on white violent atrocity hate crime, ask yourself 'Why hasn't the media covered this more?'

Mark Bale, white people are in no danger of genocide...at least not from anybody but themselves. You want to blame minorities for your problems...what about the idiot white people who are just thinning themselves from the herd? How many minorities do you think there are in places like Iowa or Nebraska? Yet there is a meth lab in every other farm field. do you think they truck in a black kid from the big city just to run it for a day or so, then give them a bus ticket back to Chicago? Um, no. Surrender everything our forefathera gave us? Everything they stole, robbed, beat out of and swindled from everybody they could, you mean? (To be fair, I believe ANY dominant culture would have done the same basic things, terrible as they are.) "Miscegenation, attrition, active violent murder violence , terrorist tactics..." REALLY? Ever hear of the Ku Klux Klan? Look them up...that or just wait until your next meeting and ask somebody why sane people don't like them. The 'flow' of white people? Like how we 'flowed' across the ocean and wiped out the indigenous population with disease and pestilence and warfare for hundreds of years? White people are AWESOME at killing stuff, don't worry. THAT legacy won't be taken away anytime soon. It is statistical knowledge that intelligent people have less children because they can better provide for the ones they have. Too many siblings will fight for scraps. Evolution is a hard thing to overcome. Plus it is a big word; 129 IQ MMPI; test for crazy.

ALSO, Mark Bale
Nobody has heard of that couple because this is Chicago and we have enough ridiculous tragedy everyday without a need to mass import more. It wasn't even that big of news IN the state it happened...black people killing white people didn't get national press because even though it statistically rarely happens, it is still somehow 'expected'. Nobody is 'covering it up', they just are more worried about the Olsen twins bikinis and if they date Sarkozy's half brother. (Hey, ALL WHITE, you should be thrilled!) Blame anybody for watching "Girl's Next Door" or that parade of idiots "The Kardashians" or really, anything on E!. Nobody cares if anything happens to ANY decent people of any color, they want to watch Judge Judy tell the white trash they are stupid because it makes them feel better about themselves.
As I've posted elsewhere, it is about power and money and how the people who have it want to keep it and use everything they can to do so. They use race, color, ethnicity, religion, gender, etc. to divide the 'lower classes' because they know they are vastly outnumbered. Divide and conquer...it is the feeble-minded that continue to fall for it, so thanks for helping them out...unless YOU are one of them. If not, then how does it feel to be a giant yammering pawn for them?
It is CLASS warfare and they have been fighting it since one person ruled one other person. The only difference is they knew it the whole time, and you still don't even know it at all.

I will agree with you on all fronts in this post, BIKERX. Nobody should be attacking anybody, period.
Also, yes, even if it was allowed, people whipping out their gun, short of those with police or military training, would likely do more damage that good in a crowded room.
However, I do think this thread was hijacked by people with an agenda that should be secondary to the real thrust of this event, that such violence even happened. I also think VERY overlooked was the fact it happened because white supremacist were meeting there for lunch. If Illinois were less tolerant of racist (of ANY color), they wouldn't feel comfortable enough to meet in the open, in broad daylight, in a public, well known restaurant. Shame on our state.

Hey, genius, "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" is the FIRST AMENDMENT...the FOURTH is about unreasonable search and seizure...please, take your 'White Irish Heritage" back 'home' to the "Troubles" if you are going to mangle MY country's Constitution.

(Not agreeing, nor disagreeing, that they ARE neo-Marxist, but if they are/were...)

When neo-Marxist attack neo-fascist/Nazis, who wins? Nobody, that's who.

Ah, but see, BIKERX, nobody is disputing that other people are bad to each other. Nobody is holding them up as a paragon of virtue. White supremacist claim to be superior, yet they play in the same mud. You can't claim the moral high ground whilst standing in the ditch. The point is that the behavior is reprehensible regardless of who is involved. White people sell other white people into the modern slave trade all the time too, that doesn't make anybody better or worse, it makes it all insane. People that try the 'two wrongs will make it okay' argument, i.e. "the blacks did it too, so it couldn't be THAT bad", think aboout this...if you buy child pornography, does it matter to anybody else who you bought it from as far as what color they would be? You bought it from a white guy, and the pictures are of white kids...would that make it okay? You bought it from a black guy and it was all black kids...would that make it better? Guessing/hoping you will say no, it is still insane. Same thing goes for slavery; or any other crime.
If you ever dig around and find out what George H.W. Bush did and advocated for before he was even vice-president...you would surpised that there are ANY Native Americans left. Terrible stuff.
Inbreds..yes, you caught me, I'm bigoted against people that have children with close relatives...crazy, right?
Again, violence as a tool for protest is the wrong way to go. I don't like neo-Nazis (who does?), but they should be confronted peacefully.

Dave..

I concur wholeheartedly that none of us are without sin.

In this case, we have a hate crime by armed attackers in 2012, against a peacefully assembling group that the attackers disdain. This is a simple truth. One group are felonious punks, the others are misguided victims. None of the victim's past or views justify an armed attack. Re: inbreds...I think that most of our founding fathers owned slaves. They were also some of the most educated and prosperous of the sttlers. It took a while to correct this depravity. I can tell you that NONE of my ancesters owned, bought or sold anyone. I moved from TP to the South 12 years ago. Frankly, I'm sick to death of hearing modern day blacks with access to programs and funding and housing and education harp about slavery and reparations etc...Grow up and put on your big boy pants. I was not justifying American slavery by citing other cases, simply noting that we gave it up 147 years ago while others regardless of color continue the practice in TWENTY FRIGGIN TWELVE !

Thanks for engaging me and debating civilly.

Close, BIKERX, one group is felonious punks, the other is white supremacist garbage that ALSO happens to have a child pornagrapher in the ranks. Feeling proud of that are they? While it MIGHT be debatable if their views should rise to the level of provoking violence (I vote no), I would have to say that while I'm REALLY NOT violent, I would not hesitate to do whatever I could to hurt people that enjoy pictures of five year olds engaged in 'adult' activity.
It it historically accurate that many founding fathers were slave holders/owners. However, many were not, and many wrestled with the notion of writing a constitution with slavery still legal in it. Additionally, and possibly most importantly, it was widely believed that slavery would die out as an anachronism in a generation. Eli Whitney and his invention the cotton gin changed all of that. By making cotton a far more profitable crop, it made slavery a lock to stay because while the gin did separate the fiber from the seeds, it was still a hand-labor intensive crop to harvest. The only way to really make money was with 'free labor' (what an ironic phrase), i.e. slaves. The very elderly founders that were still alive for slavery's "comeback" were mostly appalled (minus some Southerners, whose wealth was built upon it). Many bemoaned the 'mistake' of ever allowing it to remain legal.

I will agree that many minorities complain about things long past. While I DO wonder what white people would think if the situation were reversed...and that there is still a LOT of racism happening nowadays (just read White Irish Heritages hate-filled biliminous rants), AND that a lot of the younger generation don't know a tenth of the hardships their ancestors went through...wearing pants around your thighs and not speaking anything close to proper English isn't going to help anybody's advancement except for those that choose to dress properly and speak with intelligence. Of course, that goes for everybody, doesn't it?
I don't like the person checking out my food to have a neck tattoo...the guy operating on my kid to have a nose piercing and tatts down his arm like they are sleeves...the girl at the pet shop talking like she's writing me a text...The whole world needs to grow up a bit. We are worried about race and gender and if gay people want to marry and stop having sex just like straight people do...that doesn't help our kids stop falling behind at math or know why history repeats itself. Why they can't change a tire, even. Hatred doesn't help anything but segregation. When has that ever not lead to problems, BIG problems, down the road? We are running out of space on this planet, but instead of thinking how we can explore and colonize the galaxy, we carve ourselves into stupid little tribes like we are still fresh out of the trees millions of years ago. Sad.

DaveW,
The ARA are homosexuals. This was a Homosexual attack on Heterosexuals. Domke aka Holterman, does in fact list his gender as "other". The ARA site is Heterophobic, it actively only supports Homosexuals. Thus this was an attack by five homosexuals on straight people. Yes, this was a Federal Hate Crime. All we need at this point is a web cache with Domke stating heterosexuals are the evil.

OH good golly, BIKERX, really? If you want to work to get rid of the president by getting Romney elected later this year, meet with whomever you think will help. THOSE are campaigns that you are working for. My statements are sort of based on something called logic. If car salesman all meet, it is to talk about selling more cars. If chefs all meet, it is discuss culinary topics. If fifteen or so white supemacist (THEY PROMOTED THIS EVENT ON WHITE SUPREMACIST WEBSITES!) travel THOUSANDS of miles in a rough economy, they aren't talking about getting jobs. THAT is what email or phone calls are for. THESE people OBVIOUSLY wanted to talk about something they didn't want overheard on a phone or with a trail of email. Getting JOBS? NOBODY believes that.
The name is even dumb. European Heritage? Not a specific ethnic country, just basically white people. YES, other races are bad to their people. What great claim to civil rights or human dignity do white people have again? The truth is, all humans kind of suck, in general. We are mean and spiteful and greedy and short-sighted. Of course we can be great also...any of us, pick a color, any color. Not sure why some people are so in a hurry to run to the bottom of the evolutionary barrel.
"Hey, look, we are worse than you! We are okay with child porn!"
None of this means those people should have been attacked. I saw somebody insinuate that the owner was aware of the group. THAT is an unfounded assumption. It isn't mine, though.

Ever hear of Hammurabi? Code of Laws? Babylon?
The Magna Carta was great...although the king instantly tore it up as soon as the 'lower' royalty was safely 'out of the house'.
White people 'invented' civil rights laws? EVEN if we accept your premise...they HAD to do so BECAUSE they were (some might argue are) the reason WHY they HAD to be created.
The U.S. Constitution's First Amendment, along with the whole rest of the Constitution was written by white people BECAUSE they didn't HAVE the civil rights laws that would have enabled anybody BUT white people to write the document. Sort of self-fulfilling, isn't it?
Remember what I said about facts? How you should look them up and use them, instead of spinning them to back up whatever smear you espouse?
YOU are an anti-Semitical, racist troglodyte. Admit it, then move on. There must be some cousin you can inbreed with...just like das Fuhrer told you to do.
While you are at it, stop creating fake profiles to post when you aren't from the area, and are too cowardly to say who you really represent. Probably aren't even Irish. (They can only hope...)

Whoah...Nick discovered Wiki.

In a world where all the races started modern society oon equal footing, your question would be not only poignant, but actually relevant. Alas, it is not. Having been a white guy all my life, and, in fact, having been a recipient of discrimination, I do understand the kneejerk reaction to want to defend something, to want to keep something thought of as belonging to oneself. I get it, I really do. To pretend that whites, particularly white males, haven't had it vastly easier for millenia is simply to ignore large swaths of history in any accepted form. Just as I argue with any 'minority' person when they try to re-write history for some possibly noble but still misguided concept, so to is that the case on this thread.
BIKERX, if nothing else, perception IS reality. People may think it is hard being white, but it still isn't, not by a long shot. It just isn't. The only people that complain are the ones that haven't figured a way to get into the system. Power in this country is really all about class systems and the money that fuels it. Money doesn't care who holds it. Poor blacks, poor hispanics, poor Asians, poor whites, poor you name it...when you are poor, you blame somebody else. The powerful use our differences, be they color, religion, ethnicity, what have you, to distract us, divide us. The feeble-minded amongst us fall for this, everytime. While the answer isn't a violent uprising against ANYONE, nor is socialism, nor is fascism. It is class warfare, nothing else.

Dave...Hmm.
How is it that White men have had a smoother path through history ? Is it that some great force annointed us the chosen ones ? I suggest not. In fact, quite the opposite is true with the bithplace of mankind being nearer North Africa than Sweden. The Sumerians, Babylonians, Mayans were all people of "color", yet in this era, it is apparently easier for caucasians to be hired at Starbuck's than non-whites. Is it possible that whites worked harder or smarter to succeed by some coincidence ? Is there a biological, cultural, evolutionary, spiritual explanation ? I am not informed enough to opine. Is it coincidence that those cultures that intentionally retard the education and advancement of women fall behind when half of their intellect remains untapped ? These are questions worthy of answers in bigger forums than the TP patch. With regard to class systems..who creates a class ? How do certain groups rise to power ? I suggest Natural Selection aka survival of the fittest...the pervasive law that rules all critters. We can legislate equality and fund slower performing groups til the cows come home, but certain groups consistently lag and excel. Stereotypes are not dreamt up by bigots, they are the culmination of observations over a period. If it walks like a duck....

BIKERX, you are partially right about many things here. Anthropologically speaking there are many reasons why white people have excelled. Some are ecological or geographical in nature...people just ended up in the 'right' place at the right time, and were able to take advantage of resources available there. Nature isn't racist and it was literally organic in progression. After that, there become struggles big and small for said resources by various 'powers' of any or no particular background or race. Alliances shifted continuously, across any possible spectrum of type. More often than not, it was more based on religion than 'color'. Of course oft-times they overlapped, but not always. Christianity and Islam are both offshoots of Judaism, itself based on an older religion. So the growing dominance was not, as you rightly point out, divine intervention, but circumstantial...area, hard work, different social morays, etc. However, to propose that white people succeeded because of a common color falls short of the eye test. 'White people' fought with each other as much as any other segment of population ever. It really does go to starting with wanting THIS specific hilltop or fertile valley (or whatever), defending it from those who wanted it, and trying to take whatever resource THEY or somebody else had. In Europe it was mostly vast land tracts, in America, it often parsed down to block by block domination based on intra-white battles between ethnic origins.
More...

If by 'this era' you mean somewhat recent modern times, or really, anything after modern (ish) settlement of Europeans to this continent, you must recognize that white people had a tremendous leg up in becoming the dominant force. We had superior weaponry upon landing, a different understanding of commerce; we also brought disease, which Central America can attest is quite effective at population control. Add to that the fcat we repeatedly, unremorsefully broke any and every contract or treaty we made at our convenience. (NOT to say ANY group would not have done the same, just that this is a reason WHY white people got ahead, which is the question.) We effective stole the entire continent, slaughtered, displaced or enslaved anything not white as we went. Then, we imported MORE non-whites to be our free labor. (The argument that they were sold to us by 'their own kind' is idiotic, as the whole outcry of 'white on white' crime in Tinley exactly proves. Two wrongs make nobody right.) After the War of Southern Secession, the South held back blacks from many equal rights with the Jim Crow laws, especially when Reconstruction ended. As the blacks fled North, many towns there also implemented many restrictions against them. This practice was continued until at least the 60's when laws were changed to protect a forced 'underclass' of people. Still today pockets exist of racial inequality that hold back minorities, even as socio-economic mechanisms are in place to abort such things.

Lol, this is great... I'd like to add that I got kicked in the opine once. Yeah, after prom. It wasn't very fun. I think it's hilarious that you actually think that white america (especially males) have not had a clear advantage in life over the rest of the population. However, justifying your own stance with past civilizations like the Mayans and Babylonians is pricless...

Without black African slave owners there would have been no slavery in America.

Henry Louis Gates of the White House 'Beer Summit' fame enraged his base in 2010 by strongly opposing repartions to blacks. According to Gates the slave trade was almost wholly the result of black slave owners selling their human wares to Europeans.

He wrote:

"While we are all familiar with the role played by the United States and the European colonial powers like Britain, France, Holland, Portugal and Spain, there is very little discussion of the role Africans themselves played. And that role, it turns out, was a considerable one, especially for the slave-trading kingdoms of western and central Africa. These included the Akan of the kingdom of Asante in what is now Ghana, the Fon of Dahomey (now Benin), the Mbundu of Ndongo in modern Angola and the Kongo of today’s Congo, among several others."

"The historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University estimate that 90 percent of those shipped to the New World were enslaved by Africans and then sold to European traders. The sad truth is that without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred." [Emphasis added]

Nick, and your point is?

nick - What is your greater point with your post/quote?

Chronicles...

The depth of your thought process is.....overwhelming.

His point I am sure is that GREED on both sides of the ocean allowed for slavery. The black slave dealers preyed on weaker, lower echelon blacks to feed the slave trade. This was simply another example of class warfare by blacks and whites.

Yes, thank you BikerX. I like to keep it simple for persons like yourself and I appreciate the compliment. If I had more time I would link this conversation to the LGBT, NAACP, then sprinkle in some rubbish about the Mayans and other colored folk... Heck, I may even slide in a comment about a duck... Oh wait, you did that already... Dang, maybe I better pick itup a notch or two...

Chronicles...

Thanks for dumbing it down for me. It's a good thing that I have the likes of you to elevate my intellect. Now get me a Venti decaf.

L O L will they get anything from Santa this year ??